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Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1224	Posted - 2015.01.06 17:17:00 - [1] - Quote Djinn SouI wrote: At least this is how I see it but tanks?? gets hit by one swarm launcher, goes to run and hide wastes time repping and waiting for modules to recover. Why not keep defending? "Because I dont wanna lose millions of isk QQ. So I am going to hide for half the game because I am risking so much and not really help out at all. I can't do much of anything to help out at the objectives unless I am OP and can destroy eveyrthing in my sights. Vehiclists are some of the biggest babies....But these are just my opinions. The difference is that losing one vehicle is akin to losing 3+ Proto suits, depending on the fit, and is almost always going to cost you ISK (ie, force you to go ISK negative for that match and possibly multiple) making using vehicles in support of uncoordinated blueberries extremely unattractive. Used as part of a squad, a vehicle is more useful and the pilot, knowing that they have relatively reliable support, will be more likely to risk themselves. Djinn SouI wrote: I am open to your thoughts. Are you a vehiclist? what is your role on the battlefield? What do you believe your role should be? Can you succesfully fill your role? How do you help the gameplay of an actual match? this is your one chance to prove me wrong. I am listening... I'm an ADS pilot. My role is to be a WP pinata for any Swarmer to pull out any level of Swarmer. I don't help the gameplay of the match beyond removing uplinks/killing unaware/unequipped infantry, because my teeth were pulled when my ROF bonus was: my role is supposed to be area bombardment via strafing runs followed by troop deployment/extraction, but it is not possible due to having turrets incapable of supporting that role. No, I cannot successfully fulfil my role, because I don't have the tools to do so. Also because whenever anyone considers buffing vehicles in any way, shape or form, every scrub AVer comes out of the woodwork to defend AV/call for a vehicle nerf/call for an AV buff to compensate. Frankly, vehicles need to go back to the drawing board: 1.7 was the beginning of a whole vehicle overhaul that was entirely ignored after the first, massive change. We got some balance passes to make hardeners/reps less ridiculously OP, but that doesn't mean that the vehicles we have currently are worth a damn, because they were abandoned before the rebalancing could be completed. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1227	Posted - 2015.01.06 19:21:00 - [2] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Dropships where never supposed to be Glorified "Fighters" For the air.... With a Wet paper bag for defense to balance the offensive capabilities. So...we're (ADSs) supposed to have meh offensive capabilties (since the NDS can do pretty much the same) with bad defences (since the NDS can do far better) and still have less capacity for transport for a pretty small trade off in manoeuvrability? For a massive price increase? Bethhy wrote: This was never what this vehicle was for.... EVER. Except that it is what it was for. Rattati has said that ADSs should be performing strafing runs (which are currently impossible due to awful ROF) and since it is a dropship it is supposed to transport, either to deploy after strafing an area, or to extract them after strafing an area. Your personal assertion is utterly irrelevant in the face of Rattati's statements that ADSs should perform strafing runs. Can you post some evidence that Rattati has said that ADSs shouldn't be doing strafing runs? That they have another purpose? All you do, is the standard bitter vet procedure of shout No at everything that makes you unhappy. Bethhy wrote: Dropships are the only thing in the game that can carry full squads... Dropships where supposed to be Equivalent to Military troop transport Helicopters. Except that military helicopters have some of the better firepower projection in modern military forces. Certainly, we're not asking for ADSs to be full on attack helicopters, but we should definitely be capable of performing a strafing run as we deploy a group of mercenaries. The current ROF of the small turrets (for small missiles) or the application (for small blasters) that makes them difficult to use at anything vaguely approaching high speed. Have you ever flown? Do you ever speak to a pilot on your side? Do you understand the problems that ADS face with the carrying out with their role? Bethhy wrote: Dropships where supposed to be troop transport first.... Turrets where put on Dropships so that they could Provide cover and fire support for their squad... OR spawning in mercenaries that are then deploying out of the dropship. Yeah, because no military transport helicopter has a turret Dropships are troop transport first: the issue is not the ADS like you see to be insinuating. Simply, we have not nearly enough players on a team, nor do we have the necessary communication infrastructure nor do we have the map sizes and reasonable terrain to make good use of dropships and their capacity. How often do people use dropships for tiny hops up on top of buildings? Why? Because it's so easy to just call one in (in about five seconds) and put it away afterwards (or just let it die, if you're using a cheapo one) - why bother having a pilot, constantly in the air, who takes a good few seconds to get to you and who needs coordination to get your there together...when you can just call in a new one and have the pilot running on the ground. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1227	Posted - 2015.01.06 19:22:00 - [3] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Dropships where supposed to be able to fly low(So the doors open) and Mercenaries could jump out without the need for Inertia Dampener.. You're looking at that backwards: inertia dampeners mean you don't have to fly low. Sometimes a screaming fast pass utilising the inertia dampeners to help circumvent AV defences can net a lot more than flying low, getting the ** shot out of you which would probably cause you to scatter the drop anyway. Bethhy wrote: Turrets on the dropship where meant to have Meaningful firefight exchanges with enemy's... Not kill every suit in the game in 1-3 shots... But sit there where the gunners and infantry have a fire exchange... that is somewhat evenly matched for damage and TTK... Just the Turrets have 3x larger clips so they can sustain fire longer... In what way is a vehicle mounted turret, even a small one, only as powerful as an infantry weapon? The issue you have here is not with the ADS but with the turrets, yet you seem to be demanding that the ADS suffer nerfs to satisfy your hatred of vehicles. Vehicle mounted weapons are** more powerful than infantry weapons. Why wouldn't they be? Why would you use a vehicle if infantry were just as capable of fighting yet more flexible in everything...wait that's the current state of vehicles! Bethhy wrote: Dropship defense should be crazy high... They should be air tankers... That can sit there having meaningful exchanges with AV while supporting their squad and team before needing to retreat. Um...why? Frankly, why should aerial vehicles be resilient and sit around tanking damage? Aerial vehicles, by being more agile and mobile (well sort of) than ground vehicles should have that as their strength and maximise their time on target, not by increasing their time in the danger zone. You seem to be ascribing some really weird ideas on to dropships that don't align with pretty anything that Rattatti or anyone else wants. Bethhy wrote: ALL dropships should have built in Mobile CRU's.... This was ESSENTIAL to ending red-line matches ... Having mobile safe spawning platforms... Not blindly spawning into a CRU or an Uplink... Or even an objective to find 6 Red-berrys waiting for you... Really? Because in a redline situation we never see the winning team blowing the crap out of every vehicle called in because the redline is utterly awful at doing it's job. Oh wait, that's exactly what happens in a redline. Bethhy wrote: Dropships act like a Glorified Fighter with a wet paper bag for defense to balance it...... And all of DUST is robbed from a VITAL piece to balance and fast paced gameplay with purpose in DUST. Dropships should be a staple of DUST.... There should always be a few in the sky..... Instead their value and use has been squandered by CCP. I agree that dropships should be a staple, but frankly your ideas are pretty dumb. The issues with dropships mostly lie with bad map design, small maps and small team sizes. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1227	Posted - 2015.01.06 21:39:00 - [4] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Please show me where Rattati Said ADS's are supposed to be some gun platform of the sky that is never supposed to stop moving or it will die? It doesn't make any sense... I didn't say that they weren't supposed to stop moving or they'd die, but the notion is that speed and manoeuvrability are the primary defences. What supporting reasoning do you have for them being flying tanks?! Bethhy wrote: Worse is this game concept that you are spouting where it is completely designed around Low time to kill on nearly EVERYTHING in DUST's existence... Everything has to die in less then 1-3 seconds... Which is stupid... Might aswell call this Battlefield.. You do realise that everything - everything - infantrywise dies in about 3 seconds tops, right? Even a maxed out PRO Amarr Sentinel (522.6/1344 armour) dies to a STD Scrambler Rifle in 3.25s (0.67s to kill shields/2.58s to kill armour.) Everything dies quickly, in fact only vehicles really survive for any length of time. Seriously, where do you get off on making outright and blatantly stupid assertions? Bethhy wrote: ADS's where supposed to be a for a small squad of 4 quick infiltrating... Where the Pilot can solo support his/her small squad on quick infiltration... We Actually have HAD Fighter assets built for this game for over 5 years... There are actual FIGHTERS... That are supposed to fullfill this role... Not the troop transport vehicle... Period. Again, why are you the one to make the decision about that? Rattatti has said that ADSs should perform strafing runs and an ADS does not infringe on the introduction of fighters later. But really, your issue is that you don't want ADSs to exist, for some reason, even though they are no more obnoxious than any specialist variant of anything. It [sic] means keep moving. <- that post even talks about how if you hover for long and get engaged by multiple people you should be boned. Completely counter to your idea: your idea is wrong according to Rattati, so stop peddling your wares. Bethhy wrote: -Military Troops transport Helicopters are Not giant Gun platforms that rule the sky and the ground... That Mere assumption makes my head hurt... I Don't come on here without doing a little research about what i'm talking about. The average Troop transport Helicopter people would talk about would be...... The Chinook.. Even GTA 5 has a version.. We aren't talking about a Mil Mi-24 Attack Helicopter "with" transport capabilities... Like your trying to play like dropships should be. Nobody is suggesting them being orbital death platforms, stop blowing things out of proportion. We already have Chinooks, that's the NDS, the Grimsnes/Myron. The Python/Incubus should be equivalent to the MH-60A, which has turrets and transport capacity. Another dropship entirely is the Hind/Apache type gunship. Let me make this clear for you, since you seem so boneheadedly ignorant of what people are actually saying: Most ADS pilots don't want to be unholy murder machines, but they want to be able to fight back and contribute using the role given to the ADS: mobile firepower and troop transport. Bethhy wrote: At no point ever... Did they have a purpose in DUST.... This is really the key: not having a purpose. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1227	Posted - 2015.01.06 21:40:00 - [5] - Quote Bethhy wrote: -Dropships are currently used only for slaying and getting ontop of buildings.... And anything you have purposed leaves them pigeon holed in a useless function that will never contribute to DUST 514 ever in that state. Pigeon holes them? With a specialist variant? The NDS is the transport vehicle you talk of: the ADS is a specialist variant based around higher firepower and lower resilience. Why do you feel this is unreasonable? As before, no-one (no-one reasonable anyway) is asking for a flying machine of uber death. Bethhy wrote: Obviously you have never used a Dropship in any competitive game setting in DUST 514... Dropships absolutely have to fly low enough so you DON't activate you Inertia Dampener... As soon as you touch that you are dead before you can gain control of your mercenary.. Any competent Mercenary would have nearly every target dead that jumped from a dropship with it's inertia dampener... Dead before they could even take control of their character... Inertia dampener deployment out of a dropship = death more then not.. period. You have such a skewed view of this game. I didn't say anything about dropping directly into the line of fire, but frankly you have displayed no intelligence around the role of dropships: high speed drops are one of the best methods of inserting troops into areas and avoiding AV fire. Quite often that kind of insertion will result in the use of inertial dampeners. Low flying, high speed dropship insertions are not very common, but they can be effective, I'm sure that's what you're trying to say, but frankly when you're dealing with entrenched AV, flying low at high speed has the great risk of being knocked straight down and killing everyone. Bethhy wrote: You seem perfectly content with a wet paper bag for defense aslong as they buff the offensive capabilities of a Dropship.... To me? ANd anyone that look at the big overall picture of DUST..... This sounds just straight up ignorant. Dropships Need 2x to 3x the defensive capabilities to Fullfill their role as troop transport and support... They DO NOT need to kill everysuit in the game with 1-3 shots to fullfill this.... They do NOT need a faster ROF to deliver that 1-3 shots.... Quite frankly, I'm all for looking at the small turrets. I have, in fact, made several threads about it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=184362&find=unread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=177189&find=unread Small turrets do need to be reworked - like many aspects of vehicles. But as far as dropships needing more health? Are you kidding me? 2x-3x the defensive capabilities puts them at around 1.5x-2x more resilient than HAVs - are you high?! Bethhy wrote: At the same time allowing the dropship or dropship gunners and the AV mercenary to have a meaningful exchange... Not 1-3 shots either way and the other is dead... What kind of meaningful exchange happens when one side is virtually invincible because you gave them twice as many HP?! That would turn into one side fires 4-6 times and the other has to fire 30-40! Do you not even comprehend the sheer idiocy of your own argument? How broken 2-3x more HP would be? Bethhy wrote: The Fact that you claim dropships entire problem is a low rate of fire and bad map design just shows you completely oblivious you are to the game as a whole and ignorant to the original concepts of how Dropships where to even contribute to the game of DUST 514. Tell me more about how you're so amazing and everyone should listen to you only . Frankly, you are stating things as if they are absolutes (such as the roles of certain things) when they are simply your opinions: opinions that conflict with the template that Rattati has decided he wants to go for. Bad map design is incredibly important: how is a dropship useful on a tiny map with little verticality? Or where they have no reasonable things to use as covers (ie, most maps)? Why do most people call in a LAV to get where they're going, unless it's a high place? Because dropships are pretty pointless considering the maps are so small and that, aside from otherwise inaccessible rooftops, there is little to no gain to be had from using one over a LAV. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1232	Posted - 2015.01.06 22:43:00 - [6] - Quote From Stuff514: minDamageToCauseShieldRechargePause102.0 STD/MLT Swarm: 260 base; 0.8 profile = 208 damage per missile; 0.6 hardener = 124.8: breaks regen threshold. ADV Swarm : 286 base: 0.8 profile = 228.8 damage per missile; 0.6 hardener = 137.28: breaks regen threshold. PRO Swarm: 312 base: 0.8 profile = 249.6 damage per missile; 0.6 hardener = 149.76: breaks regen threshold. Single Hardeners do not stop any level of swarms from breaking shield regeneration. Two hardeners: STD: 124.8 * 0.656 = 81.87: regen not broken. ADV: 137.28 * 0.656 = 90.06: regen not broken. PRO: 149.76 * 0.656 = 98.24: regen not broken. Two hardeners stop any level of Swarm. 1 ADV/PRO Damage Mod or 2+ levels of MinCom will prevent recharge with PRO Swarms, can't be bothered to do all the maths on every level Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1233	Posted - 2015.01.06 23:29:00 - [7] - Quote Bethhy wrote: This is what your basing your entire argument on gameplay for a dropship Don't think that you understand me, and you clearly have little grasp on reality. I've flown since dropships came out, and I've been flying ADS since they came out and as a dedicated ADS pilot for well over a year and a half. Can you make that claim? Do you understand what flying requires? Do you know the best ways to react to coming under fire, how to manoeuvre to best avoid Forge Guns, how to drop altitude to break swarm locks? You think you're superior because you've been playing a long time? So have I, I joined in Beta on the back of a Merc Pack, I played on the weekends when that was all we were allowed. You've done everything? Great! But that means you're not a specialist, and you don't understand the roles like a specialist does. Bethhy wrote: We can tweak this all you want, it will change absolutely nothing with dropships or even the need for it to be on the battlefield other then being a slayer. Which is all your defending. The right to be a more effective slayer, No matter how you try and explain that you're not on several occasions. Let me ask you a question: what is not based around slaying in this game? Assaults are all about going in and killing to take it. Sentinels are all about sitting somewhere, killing to defend the point. Commandos are all about killing. Scouts have less focus on killing, but are still focused on finding enemies...so that they can be neutralised: either by killing or by circumventing. Logistics are about the denial of killing and supporting those who do the killing. What role does not involve killing? What purpose can something play that does not involve getting into the thick of things and killing? A LAV? - then what's the turret for? A HAV? - then why have bigger and more powerful guns? A Dropship? - then why transport people to go kill? Absolutely everything in this game revolves around killing. Some have different methods of killing, and some circumvent killing (like MinScouts hacking) so that pressure is eased elsewhere making the overall objectives easier to obtain. As much as you say you want to make dropships have a purpose, removing the ability to kill is not the way to do it - doing so is only going to render them short-term taxis. Answer another question then: why have variants? All variants are differences based on a similar base: Assault Scrambler Rifles are still anti-shield weapons, but they use full auto mechanics and a low damage per shot/better damage over time principle. The Assault Dropship, which you are so diametrically opposed to, is a variant: it has higher firepower and lower defences. Bethhy wrote: Where Dropships consistently land their shots with ease. You really show yourself as an incompetent when you make ridiculous claims. I fly with Pvt Numnutz, usually as a gunner but sometimes flying for him, and solo, and we do well, because we're both ADS pilots and have been for over a year each. We've also flown together for nearly as long and so we communicate and understand each other very well. Even with that coordination, we still struggle to fight off a solo AV player, because what you said above is simply not true. A good dropship pilot, who's been around and flown for a long time will do a lot of damage and will have a good damn aim, but saying that hitting consistently is easy? Go away, I think your bridge is getting cold without you under it. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1233	Posted - 2015.01.06 23:29:00 - [8] - Quote Bethhy wrote: (1) Dropships should get large War-point rewards for transporting Troops from A->B.... It should be the main area the UI selects for a spawn point in maps.. When it is above an Objective defending it's squad mates and providing a safe spawn area for team mates... The opposing side should look to remove the dropship and safe spawn location first before assaulting the objective... (2) There should be Mercenaries who are AV Infantry specialists.. Who run AV as their primary function.. And an entire gameplay shaped around Vehicle VS AV and a balanced exchange... (3) It should be able to defend it's self but at the same time have it's gunners shot out if they are exposed to long... (4) ADS's should be less defense but with the addition of a pilot gunner that can operate without being shot out or exposed to small arms fire... (5) Between Tanks, Dropships, LAV's and Turret installations and gameplay around full time Infantry AV Specialists. The entire system has to get reworked... And roles and actual Purpose to them put forward on the battlefield from that. (6) Tweaks here and there will do nothing for the dropship... It has to get defined into a role and purpose. And being a competitive slayer that is in the air is not what a dropship was ever designed to do by CCP. (1) That is an mCRU. As far as equipping an mCRU is concerned, I don't necessarily disagree, but unless there are better communication channels and uplinks are far less useful/prevalent, then mCRUs will remain as ill-forgotten as ever. People don't spawn on mCRUs for several reasons: 1, they don't know where they'll end up when they finally spawn; 2, they can get an uplink that's either faster, better positioned or both; 3, they simply can't because of bugs. But I definitely agree that transporting mercs should be much more rewarded. (2) Um...yeah. That is pretty much exactly what balance means. Currently, AV can either kill or drive off a DS in relatively short order. Even if they fail to kill them, they can reap a good 150 WP from them just for firing three volleys of swarms. AV is handsomely rewarded; piloting is not. Not to mention the incredible differences in ISK payouts/costs. Not everyone is a PC Farmer/Father like you, we don't all have bucketloads of ISK to spare on 577 Proto suits a day, or 100 ADSs/HAVs. I currently have about 30mil, and that's because I've been running mostly infantry because any AV on the field pretty much shuts me down entirely. (3) That is entirely the case right now. Except with the defending itself part. Actually identifying and killing AV is difficult, even as a gunner - unlike said AV, you need to account for your pilot's movements, current momentum and the fact that unlike infantry you can't aim with the motion of your body. As an ADS pilot, you need to account for most of that, plus actually flying and paying attention to everything around you: where is that AV coming from; are there any vehicles nearby; check up, in case there's a ramship randomly farting about just because. (4) Again...exactly what we have at the moment. (5) Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by an entire rework. Maps are small, no matter how much you try to deflect that as an issue, it really is. I can come and pick someone up from one side and take them to another, or they could have called in a LAV and gotten there already by the time we lift off. Just changing WP rewards isn't a rework, it's just as much of a tweak as anything else. (6) As I said, everything is about killing, no matter how you look at it. There's a reason not a single thing in the game has no guns, except for Ramship Grimsnes' and taxis, and the latter is about getting someone to a better position so they can kill better. Everything is about killing. ADS is about killing better than an NDS. Why do you think I'm trying to get a murder beast of unholy power? What I'm asking for is to be able to respond to threats as equally as anyone else is able, and to perform my role: performing fast attacks in prelude to deploying small teams of mercenaries. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1234	Posted - 2015.01.07 01:26:00 - [9] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: I like the WP cost for vehicles. It doesnt have to be much, but it would justify the buffing of vehicles as they would be more 'valuable'. LAVs and DSs would keep their 'free' cost as some people need the help traversing the field. ADSs and Tanks would cost WP so that it is clear that you are and infantryman first, then a pilot. Depending on the WP cost we could have the ISK cost of ADSs and Tanks go down This is supposedly a sandbox game: why shouldn't someone be allowed to be a vehicle pilot first and foremost? Are fighter pilots, with all their training, supposed to fight as a riflemen before they can get in their planes and put that training to good use? Do tank commanders and gunners have to run around, get shot at a bunch before they're allowed to get in a tank and blow **** up? Essentially no. Most armies have basic training to give every the, well, basics and to get everyone into the chain of command: but a specialist is not treated the same as a generalist, they are used in the speciality first and foremost, because what's the point otherwise? In essence, why must someone be forced to run something they're not necessarily good at (some people just can't do FPS very well, but they might take to flying or tanking like a duck to water) in order to do what they want? What balance does this acheive, but potentially make those vehicles more powerful and make stomping even more severe? Need 1,000 WP before you can call down your tank? Good luck when you've got a squad and a half of proto stompers kicking your teeth in with their four, new and improved tanks! Let's flip the tables: why shouldn't you be forced to run Scout/Light suits until you've earned enough WP to be allowed to use a Medium? Then use that Medium to be allowed to deploy a Heavy? Quite frankly, if you've skilled into something and paid to own the suit, you shouldn't be restricted in whether you're allowed to use it. I have issues with allowing proto in Pubs (mostly because this seriously hurts NPE and also makes Pubs vastly less interesting) but considering we have the lowest tier of everything the notion still applies: why, if you've spent your SP on something you want to do, would you not be allowed to use it? If you can't balance it before needing WP to call it, it's most certainly not going to be balanced with a WP requirement! Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

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